Trinity: Truth or Tragedy Debate #1 12/30/05
This forum panel discussion/debate was the first in a series of three. HungerTruth hosted and participated in this debacle :-) at the First Congregational Church in Riverside. Each panel was composed of three adherents to their respective positions. Dr. Lee Greer, Danny Andre Dixon and Dan Mages argued for the Unitarian position while Gabriel Colangelo, Mike Sarkissian, and Ed Enochs argued for Trinitarian theology.
Here is some of the discussion that went on after the debate.
Blog by participant Ed Enochs
By now you probably know that the word is out about the recent Riverside debate and the general consensus across Southern California is that the Trinitarians in the recent debate presented a more cogent and coherent presentation in defense of the Trinity
Recently, as many of us watched a video that was produced on the debate, a common response being made is that the Unitarian presentation was disjointed and squattered. As a defender of historic Evangelical Orthodoxy on the Trinity I am willing to continue this debate in writing and in on going public debates like the one held in Riverside this past week, however, one thing has become a consensus amongst the Orthodox Evangelicals is that Unitarians must produce a far more cogent and systematic presentation of their anti-trinitarianism and a better hermenutical articulation of their position, providing some semblance of an objective standard of interpretation. As a participant in this recent debate, I was greatly perplexed as to what methodology of hermeneutics you were using and seen some major inherent incongruousness in your interpretive grid from which you exegete Scripture. I myself was left scratching my head and wondering from what criterion do you objectively interpret Scripture. Is your hermeneutic taken from the subjectivistic postmodern standard of the Emergent Church Movement, philosophical rationalism, Historical-Grammaticalism or some other interpretive method of understanding Holy Scripture. It will be interesting to see if you will regroup and redouble your efforts to produce such a hermeneutic or run the risk of being deemed incoherent by your Trinitarian opponents such as I. In any event, I am looking forward to seeing you rally to muster a better hermeneutic. I look forward to sparring with you on the Trinity in the days ahead. In Defense of the Historic Trinity, Lee Edward Enochs Evangelical Apologist, Southern California
Letter in response by Moderator Steve Scianni (1/18/06)
Ed,
Hello, how are you? I hope all is well. This is Steve Scianni – the moderator in the Trinitarian/Unitarian Debate in Riverside. I recently had the chance to read your blog entitled “Do the Biblical Unitarians Have a Coherent and Objective Hermeneutical Criterion?” Dan and I exchange e-mails frequently on various topics and this happened to be one of them, so I hope you don’t mind me joining in and responding. As the moderator (someone who was there to witness and hear all that took place), and someone who knows all three of the men personally, I feel confident in saying that you may fault them for other things, but not their hermeneutic. That is simply because their hermeneutic is exactly the same as your own. They (and I’ll include myself) use the “Grammatico-Historical” method of interpretation, which I assume is what most Evangelical/Orthodox churches follow and allow for. They (the Unitarians, at least the three that I know and that were in the debate) have always sought the original intent of the author and literal meaning of the text paying close attention to (1) context, (2) historical/cultural idioms, (3) lexical studies and (4) comparative scriptural analysis – that is, the harmonizing of one biblical text with another. I have never heard Dan Mages, Danny Dixon, Anthony Buzzard or Lee Greer propose or support a metaphorical, allegorical, or moral hermeneutic in understanding the biblical text, nor do they seek to interpret scripture any different than the Calvary Chapels, the Evangelical Free Churches, the Reformed Churches, or any other mainline protestant church I know of. If you are accusing them of poor interpretation, that is one thing, but it is an entirely different thing to accuse them of a poor hermeneutic. If you find fault in their hermeneutic, you need to first establish and describe your own coherent and objective system, and secondly be specific as to exactly where and how the Unitarians are violating fundamental interpretive rules. You have not done this and so for you to implore the Unitarians to ‘produce a…better hermeneutical articulation of their position, providing some semblance of an objective standard of interpretation,’ is misleading, unwarranted, and ultimately meaningless.
For example, when 1 Timothy 2:5 is supplied as a proof that Jesus is not God, but that he is a man mediating between God and men, you may accuse them of interpreting the verse incorrectly, but you cannot accuse them of having a faulty method of interpreting this verse. Both camps are after the literal and objective meaning of the verse and so it is an inadequate reply to state that they have a poor interpretation, because they have an improper hermeneutic. In fact, it is no reply at all. It is a ‘Straw Man’ that neglects the real arguments, and conveniently allows you to avoid dealing with the texts that are employed.
Ed you are better than this, and there is no reason you should have been ‘greatly perplexed’ or ‘scratching your head wondering’ what ‘objective criterion’ they were using. Let me assure you that the Unitarians you debated seek a literal interpretation through historical, grammatical, lexical and contextual analysis. So clearing this, you can now concentrate on answering the scriptural arguments properly, and not by an inappropriate dismissal of their interpretive method or ‘deeming them incoherent.’ You really ought not to assume that if someone has a different view than you do, that they interpret things erroneously, or that they are ‘disjointed.’ You need to be OK with alternate interpretations (especially when both camps are using the same hermeneutic) and you need to be alright with the idea that perhaps there are many clear, literal, biblical texts that point away from the Trinity, and it is with these that you must wrestle (as the Unitarians must wrestle with their own). And above all we must always remember that ‘we know in part’ and that love is the greatest virtue. I don’t say that to ask you to stop debating and stop defending truth from error, hardly, only that you seek to write with more fairness and accuracy the next time. You mention that you ‘saw major inherent incongruousness in [their] interpretive grid….’ It would be fair for you to share examples of this, but you did not. And lastly, the blog was not accurate because it did not address any real disagreement, but sought to portray the Unitarians as somehow fundamentally flawed. It would be appropriate, I feel, for you to revise the blog stating either that the hermeneutic is valid, or at least citing specific examples of where and how it is invalid. I thank you for your time and your understanding, and you should know that I’m only seeking harmony and good scholarship and that I remain as much a friend as ever.
Steve Scianni
Ed's Response back to Steve #1
For Steve, Danny Dixon, Dan M. and Lee,
Regarding
grammatical errors in my blog, I am working 16 hour days in Utah where
I will be for the next month, and have no time to maintain it, outside
a quick post here and there, I have no time to correct any errors.
Thankfully,
the Bible does not make such errors and clearly and meticlously
declares that Jesus Christ is God and had an eternal prexistence and we
forecefully demonstrated at the debate in Riverside.
Once verse,
I barely had time to mention in my presentation is John 1:18, which
clearly shows from this text bases on the best and most ancient Greek
mauscripts including the Codex Vaticanius and Sinaticus, that Jesus is
God.
Please do not allow
your anti-trinitarian presuppostions to factor into your understanding of John 1:18 and explain to us clearly how John 1:18 in declaring Jesus as the "only begotten God" does not support our thesis that Jesus Christ is God the Son.
Steve, regarding your comments regarding my post, sorry I do not have time to maintain it up to your expectations, I am working long hours far from home and have no time to rest, let alone maintain my theology blo these days.
Anyways, please answer my questioins about John 1:18.
Standing for the Trinity,
Ed Enochs
Steve's Response to Ed #2 (1/20/06)
Ed, I realize that you are keeping very busy in Utah , so there is no real need to apologize about maintaining your blogs. I
am not overly concerned about grammatical and spelling errors in your
posts, nor am I trying to impose an unfair standard on you. The
public and academic community have only the basic expectation that if
you are going to write about something and you want to be taken
seriously, you ought to spell correctly. But as said before, these mistakes are incidental, minor and not at all what my response was about,
it was disappointing that you did not address the real issue of hermeneutics.
The
topic of my response to your post, was not grammar or spelling, but
that you misunderstood and misrepresented the Unitarian position on
hermeneutics and that you provided no examples or evidence to support
your claim. You should have responded to this,
and not switched the issue to grammar, not to mention begging for an
interpretation of John 1:18. Why should anyone answer your question about John 1:18 if you won’t give them the courtesy of answering their questions? But we are adults and here is an appropriate time to apply Jesus’ precept to ‘give without
expecting to get anything back’ (Luke 6:35).
You ask for a clear explanation of how John 1:18 does not support the Trinitarian thesis that Jesus Christ is God the Son. (1) In spite of your dogma that the best manuscripts contain theos to read “Only begotten God,” the simple fact is that the evidence indicates that ‘Son’ is the original reading. It is true that the earliest Greek manuscripts we have read theos but this does
not make them the “best” manuscripts, nor the original. Just
because they are early, doesn’t make them the most accurate, so for you
to equate ‘ancient’ with ‘best’ is subjective and unwarranted. Let me quote from the book One God, One Lord by Mark Graeser:
Although it is true that the earliest Greek manuscripts contain the reading “theos,”
every one of those texts is of the Alexandrian text type. Virtually
every other reading of the other textual traditions, including the
Western, Byzantine, Caesarean and secondary Alexandrian texts, read huios,
“Son.” The two famous textual scholars, Westcott and Hort, known for
their defense of the Alexandrian text type, consider John 1:18 to be
one of the few places in the New Testament where it is not correct.
A large number of the Church Fathers, such as Irenaeus, Clement and
Tertullian, quoted the verse with “Son,” and not “God.” This is
especially weighty when one considers that Tertullian argued
aggressively for the incarnation and is credited with being the one who
developed the concept of “one God in three persons.” If Tertullian had
had a text that read “God” in John 1:18, he certainly would have quoted it, but instead he always quoted texts that read “Son.”
That
being the case, it is not surprising for Graeser to state, nor for us
to conclude that, “The Greek texts vary, but there are good reasons for
believing that the original reading is represented in versions such as
the KJV” which reads “only begotten Son.” (2) This
phrase, “only begotten Son,” being used three other times in the Bible,
makes sense, has meaning, and has contextual support. The
phrase, “only begotten God” is never used elsewhere in scripture, does
not make sense, has no meaning, and has no contextual support, and this
would lead us to believe that the original text had “son” and not “god.” It is more likely that John would have used the same phrase as he did in 3:16, 18 and 1 John 4:9, instead of using a new one (‘only begotten God’) and never using it again. It is more likely that John would have used a phrase that makes sense rather than one that does not. Sons are begotten, Gods are not. What sense or meaning is there in the phrase ‘Only begotten God?’ How can God have a begetting and a beginning? It is therefore the most intellectually responsible and rational approach to have a begotten Son, rather than a begotten God
(and it must be contended that this latter phrase is incoherent and without meaning).
In addition, contextually, the verse reads properly with ‘son’ and not ‘god.’ The phrase ‘at the Father’s side’ is very important and very telling. What makes more sense that there is a ‘Son’ at the Father’s side or a ‘God’ at the Father’s side? The answer is obvious. The context demands that the original word is ‘Son’ as it is connected with ‘Father.’ Further, ‘No one has ever seen God,’ but the ‘only Son…has made him known.’ To insert ‘God’ for ‘Son’ would make this senseless…it would
read like this, “No one has ever seen God…but the only God has made him known.” Who talks like that? There is no meaning in a phrase like that, it is purely absurd, so it is clear that John is talking about two different entities, one (the Son) making the other (God) known to humanity. Read both ways, John 1:18 is nonsense with ‘God,’ but perfectly understandable with ‘Son.’ And you can read it and test it for yourself, and there is no anti-Trinitarian presupposition involved. And
lastly, a case can and has been made that the text was changed to
support the Trinity, but I don’t feel that needs to be explored in any
depth as given the above evidence it does seem obvious that something
like that had to happen, for ‘Son’ is the only intelligible reading of
the verse.
Ed, I think that fairly answers the verse and that an unbiased approach would lead one to conclude that John 1:18 does not support the Trinity, the pre-existence of Jesus, or the Deity of Jesus. Now,
I’ve done my best to answer your question, and I would hope that you
would spend more time on the hermeneutic question, and correct your
misunderstanding in this area so that Dan and Danny, Lee and Anthony
are portrayed accurately and fairly. As always, I appreciate your time and attention.
Steve
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